Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia

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Stock post message.svg To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia: edit·history·watch·refresh· Updated 2021-06-16

Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Western Australia:

Vital articles: 100 Most Influential Western Australians is a possible starting point
Requested articles: Energy in Western Australia • Nicholson, Western Australia • South Western Advertiser (see Trove page) • Robin Sarah Greenburg (see Crimenet page) • Chesters' Subdivision Conservation Area, Subiaco [1][2] • Commonwealth Bank building, Perth  •
Missing topics: Bannister, Western Australia • Arthur Jenkins (Australian politician) • James Macfarlane (Western Australian politician) • Western Australian Executive Council • See missing topics report for more
Draft articles: Search for Western Australia drafts • Search for Perth drafts • See draft articles listing for more
Seeking sources: William Harris (Australian civil rights leader) • Michael Kailis
Expansion needed: David Parker • Economy of Western Australia • Bill Hassell • May Holman • Barry MacKinnon • PGA • Pilbara historical timeline • List of WA waterfalls • tourism sections needed in Western Australia • Thomas Hughes (Australian politician) - needs expansion from cultural sources
Requested images: Requested photographs in Western Australia • Requested photographs in Perth
Article cleanup: See Cleanup listing
Popular pages: See Popular pages listing (related changes) – improvements to (or vandalism of) these articles will impact a larger number of readers
Assessment: See Unassessed WA articles and Unknown-importance WA articles
Outreach projects:

WP:WA Noticeboard[edit]

Recently created articles[edit]

Article alerts[edit]

Articles for deletion

Categories for discussion

Good article nominees

Requested moves

Articles to be merged

Articles to be split

Wikipedia:WikiProject Perth
WikiClubWest logo Perth Meetup

WMAU 2017 vertical logo (colour).svg
See also: Australian events listed at Wikimedia.org.au (or on Facebook)

Railway lines and services in Perth[edit]

Comments are requested on Talk:Airport railway line, Perth#I've had some thought. Steelkamp (talk) 07:01, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Please leave the thoughts here - as it is system wide, not just that line. Precedence, and general consistency across the perth lines is better shared here, and considering the level of responses to this noticeboard, the actual level of understanding of how railway systems are best represented, it would help to show the other states/cities of australia rather than the usual suspect US centrism in wikipedia JarrahTree 07:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Adelaide railways are arranged in the same fashion as what I am proposing. Grange railway line lists all stations between Adelaide and Grange. Same with Flinders railway line. See Railways in Adelaide#Railway lines. Brisbane has a more thorough separation between line and services, although they are still on the same article. See Redcliffe Peninsula railway line. Sydney separates lines from services, however Sydney has a far more complex and interconnected network than Perth. Steelkamp (talk) 12:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
excellent - thanks for that, adequate oz context - I would support your proposal - interesting no mention of melbourne at all JarrahTree 12:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Didn't mention Melbourne because I didn't get around to looking at that. Looking at it now, it looks like the Adelaide articles, with lines and services in the same articles. See how Glen Waverley railway line branches from other lines at Burnley railway station, but still lists all stations from Flinders Street to Glen Waverley. Steelkamp (talk) 12:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
The primary focus should IMO be on the service (between High Wycombe and Claremont) and not the infrastructure built for it, or indeed the kind of vehicles servicing it (both of which are secondary). For example, does it stop being the Airport "Line" just because a bus is filling in for a broken down train along a part of, or even the entire, route? Does anyone care if it starts travelling on different railway track?
At the same time, the articles on services (such as Airport Line) and stations (such as Butler Station) ought to be renamed (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 12#Station article titles), because
  1. There is NO consistently adopted world-wide scheme for naming transport-related stuff. Everyone does their own thing, with some transit systems more organised than others (see New York City Subway nomenclature, MAX Light Rail and London Underground). It is what it is.
  2. Surely Transperth gets to decide what they call their stuff, and they get to change their minds as time goes by. If they want to call something Railway Station (perhaps for historic reasons) they can, and if they want to call it Train Station they can do that too.
  3. It isn’t unusual for Wikipedia to conflate distinct things ... that OpenStreetMap for example cannot. The fact is that there IS a structure "on the ground" called Butler Station that comprises a bus station (with multiple stops at which busses stop) and a railway/train station (with multiple platforms at which trains stop). If you want to talk about JUST the railway station part then it’s reasonable to call the article Butler railway station, but calling the article that talks about the larger station a railway station is simply confusing when it in fact isn’t a just railway station because the railway station is only a part of the larger station.
  4. Being accurate is more important than being consistent. It would be nice to do both and be consistently accurate, and I think we can, but to be OK with being inaccurate for the sake of being consistent doesn’t feel right (although I understand sometimes you have to in order to move on).
Betterkeks (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Betterkeks. Having written a Good Article on a railway station in Perth, and having another one nominated right now, I now more than ever believe that the stations and lines should be renamed:
  1. Because almost all sources use the naming system X Station, and X Line.
  2. Because after the first few mentions of a railway station in an article, I find myself writing "X station" because it is shorter and more concise.
Steelkamp (talk) 04:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Can that please also include the regional services (Australind (train), The Prospector (train service), AvonLink and MerredinLink)? Betterkeks (talk) 01:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
What are you saying? That those regional services should be renamed (I disagree), or that those train services should be mention on Midland railway line and Armadale and Thornlie railway lines? (I agree) Steelkamp (talk) 01:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@Steelkamp: I am saying that the articles for those regional services should ALSO be renamed at the same time to be consistent with the non-regional services. Currently they adopt the name of the service, suffixed with (train) for one (focusing on the vehicle), (train service) for another (focusing on service using a particular class of vehicle), and the other two have no suffix. How about renaming all articles to "<official name> (rail service)" consistently? For example, "Australind (rail service)", "Airport Line (rail service)". Betterkeks (talk) 05:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I was opposed to The Prospector Line, Australind Line, etc. How about the following names:

Adding (rail service) onto the end of each name would be unnecessary, because only two of these articles need that. Steelkamp (talk) 07:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Where does the Eastern Railway (Western Australia) fit in? That article seems to suggest the Fremantle and Midland services run on that line. Hack (talk) 03:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
It seems like the Midland and Fremantle lines run on the Eastern Railway, and the Armadale line runs on the South Western Railway, Western Australia (uses comma disambiguation, instead of brackets disambiguation for some reason). All the more reason to change the Transperth line articles into articles on the service primarily, with infrastructure secondary. User:PhiH seems to have made changes relating to this on the Armadale line article. Steelkamp (talk) 03:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Didn't know about the discussion here. The situation on the Eastern Railway looks quite similar to the South Western Railway: Both are railway lines and the Midland, Fremantle, Armadale and Thornlie Lines are services running on them. --PhiH (talk) 20:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
@Steelkamp: I am in favour of renaming. I agree with all your suggestions except for the last two (The Prospector (train service) and Australind (train service)); for these I am in favour of
  • Prospector (rail service) – Use name only, without "The", and defocus vehicle, instead focusing on the "mode" for service (e.g., road , rail, air, sea). Even a bus filling in for a train will roughly follow the rail.
  • Australind (rail service) – Defocus vehicle.
Betterkeks (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Those titles are fair enough. Steelkamp (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
@JarrahTree: It looks like we achieved WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS. In your opinion, are we good to go ahead and change the article names? Betterkeks (talk) 05:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Are we now able to rename the articles, or is a formal move discussion required? Consensus appears to be for renaming. Steelkamp (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
(a) Explanation for the 'Eastern Railway' - when the line from Fremantle was constructed in 1880s to Guildford - it was known as the Eastern Railway, and those lucky enough to see original documents in state records office - the titles on the plans have Eastern Railway, as Perth was not the measuring point in the system at the commencement of the railway system. However the question by Hack I suggest can be said that the line(s) were known as the Eastern railway historically, but for the purpose of the current status - that Fremantle and Midland lines are valid names, and in effect the Eastern Railway commences in Midland - beyond the metropolitan services.
Note that the wikipedia format for the three Eastern Railway routes between Bellevue and Northam, is a 'construct', but each item has the commonly used terms/names for each route.
(b) the process of discussing the naming above shows what is good and how it works in a constructive manner - the consensus seems to in positive terms - as long as there are no objections, it looks like evolution to terms/titles worth supporting.
(c) Betterkeks point about country services to rail is excellent - defocusing from 'train' is excellent!
(d) there are other links and articles about other railway lines in Western Australia, and there might be a reason to look at them as well... JarrahTree 11:31, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
  • If articles were solely about the present day service, then the xxx Line name as used by Transperth would be appropriate. But articles are about much more than just the present operation. While there are some examples of separate articles for the physical railway lines and the services that operate on them, e.g. there are Bankstown railway line and Bankstown Line articles for the line and service respectively in Sydney, that is because the service operates over multiple railway lines. Not that I am advocating a split of the WA articles, that would be content forking.
The standard naming convention for Australian railway lines is xxx railway line. See no reason as to why WA articles should deviate from the established naming convention.
xxx railway station rather than xxx station is the established convention for all Australian railway stations, again see no reason why WA articles should deviate. Joondam (talk) 02:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are usually about railway lines and not about services which are only considered notable in few cases. The Armadale Line for example is clearly a service and not, as the current title Armadale and Thornlie railway lines suggests, a railway line. The same is true for services running on the Eastern Railway. In these cases an article solely about the service would be good, without detailed history about the railway line. On the other hand there is for example the line from Bayswater to High Wycombe which is currently covered at Airport railway line. The article about the ongoing construction project should be one focusing on the railway line, not one about a service that is expected to run on it. --PhiH (talk) 07:18, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
I think it is a bad idea to separate the articles on services and articles on lines. This would result in two articles which are essentially about the same thing. With the Midland/Fremantle/Armadale case, those articles can go into more detail on the line than at the Eastern and South Western Railway articles, such as the details on the electrical system, and when stations were opened. There is no established convention on article names. We should go with the official names, rather than the current names, which aren't used much outside wikipedia. Anyway, I have made some of the moves, as this discussion has been going on for weeks. Some of the others have been requested at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. I have yet to move the railway station articles. Steelkamp (talk) 08:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
I am bowing out of this, as some of the assertions in the above discussion, to me feel unresolved, and despite some impatience, it is well worth getting to a point where all the editors who are working on the materials reach some sort of commons understanding. There seems to be a herd of cats here, Have fun.
So where attempts at discussion and consensus above fail, I think it is where a move is made -

Joondam moved page The Prospector (train service) to The Prospector (train) over redirect: no need for elongated disambiguation - I do mot think that reflects any part of the above conversation, as elongated disambiguation hadnt been part of what I was reading above. The cutting to bare bones may appease one editors ideas, but there was no discussion about whether qualifier words are useful or not. JarrahTree 09:55, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@Joondam: "train service" is not an elongated disambiguation compared to "train", it's a different thing. I don't understand why you moved the page when the consensus here was going in a completely different direction. --PhiH (talk) 10:24, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I am going to start moving the station articles, seeing as there are two supports, one oppose, and all other discussion participants have not stated an opinion on this. Steelkamp (talk) 11:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

That never has been anything that even approaches considered variations, and is 'not consensus - and the AKA/alternaive names and designations added in lead sentences are much much easier to resolve or revert than moves - think of consistency across the wikidata/commons areas as well - if the designation is current - historic and alternative usages/designations are as important for an encyclopediac entry - understanding the designations in context is important to show understanding how such items are designated over time. Train is a very recent appellation, railway was across the board only so many years ago... JarrahTree 12:26, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

? consensus[edit]

Hi guys, I'm not involved in this discussion and I know nothing about this topic. I'm here only because I'm a page mover and I saw Steelkamp's 3 requests at RM. I'm happy to help you guys with these moves if there is actual consensus for them. Can you please tell me if you do have consensus? Happy to help, Dr. Vogel (talk) 14:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@DrVogel: My analysis of the discussion is this: Myself and Betterkeks support the move, and Joondam opposes it. I think PhiH supports it as well, but I'm not 100% sure on their opinion. Other users haven't supported or opposed it. There was definitely consensus as of yesterday, but today, it is less clear, with 3 users supporting and 1 users opposing. Some parts of the above discussion are about something else (renaming railway station articles), which may make it look more confusing. I was the user who made those requests at RM though, so make of this comment what you will. Steelkamp (talk) 15:17, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks so much for explaining that, Steelkamp. Shall we leave it a couple of days to see if anyone strongly opposes this? For clarity, these are the requests in question. Dr. Vogel (talk) 15:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
@Dr. Vogel: as I explained at the WP:RM/TR page, this discussion is the wrong venue for a requested move, and is not sufficient to make the move even if it appears to have a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS here. It needs to be opened into a full RM discussion. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
@Amakuru: thanks for explaining that, I'll know for next time. Dr. Vogel (talk) 12:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The pages have been moved. However, do we still need to "turn this into an RM" as suggested by Jack Frost? Note that the requests are gone from here; see here. Betterkeks (talk) 00:16, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Betterkeks, the pages weren’t moved. After leaving the participants a note, I removed the discussion from WP:RMTR in line with usual practice as it was clear that the issue was contentious and that it didn’t seem resolvable in that forum. That’s the “Discuss 1” in the edit summary. Apologies for any confusion. --Jack Frost (talk) 00:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
@Jack Frost: Thank you for clarifying. @Steelkamp and PhiH: I've never gotten sucked this deep into Wikipedia rabbit-holes before, so I have no idea (yet) how to take this forward (how to "turn this into an RM") to get the names to reflect reality. Could either of you oblige, please? Betterkeks (talk) 00:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
@Betterkeks: I will create an RM. By the way, you may be confused because I have already moved the articles I could move before the RMTR. Midland Line, Perth, Armadale and Thornlie Lines, Airport Line, Perth, and Morley–Ellenbrook Line have been moved to new names. Fremantle railway line, Joondalup railway line, and Mandurah railway line have not. Steelkamp (talk) 03:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

The trouble with not doing RMs is that this is a very local consensus, if any. Almost all other parts of the world have decided not to cap "station", and most do not cap "line". To move toward capping those should require a showing of evidence that they're consistently capped in sources. I'm not seeing that. Dicklyon (talk) 06:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this should be done via RM. The process exists for a reason, and the existence of this discussion basically will not be taken into account in move discussions, so it really serves no purpose. Someone shoudl just go start the RMs and get it over with.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  20:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Agree that there are issues with not doing this through a broadly notified process. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

2021 Local Government Elections[edit]

Almost unnoticed (by most), WA Local Government Elections have happened on 16 October 2021 and the results are publicly available here. I noticed that User:Steelkamp has started updating a few LGAs and I have updated two. Updating them all with prospective new or re-elected mayors will take a bit of time and effort, if somebody is interessted. Calistemon (talk) 05:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone think it is appropriate to mention political party membership for local councillors if membership is known? Bayswater and Belmont both release the political interests of elected members. [3] and [4]. Others are known on a case by case basis. Steelkamp (talk) 06:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
If the party affiliation is confirmed through a reliable source, as is above, i can't see why not. Calistemon (talk) 08:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Yalup Brook, Western Australia: Does it exist?[edit]

Doing some ongoing OSM linking work, I have come across Yalup Brook, Western Australia, which states it is a small town located in the South West of Western Australia and is listed under towns at Shire of Waroona. Is it really? The coordinates actually point to the Alcoa Wagerup Alumina Refinery. Both OSM and Google do not show any boundaries for this "town". The area it is supposed to be in is actually Wagerup, Western Australia. The one and only source in the article mentions nothing past 1912. It doesn't look like a town, if ever there was, still exists and it is, at best, "a former small town" unless somebody has got some other information? Calistemon (talk) 11:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Clearly has existed - see https://trove.nla.gov.au/search?keyword=yalup - it is mentioned in 1916 and 1948 ...
interesting as a place - https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-921422119/view?searchTerm=yalup&partId=nla.obj-921423950 JarrahTree 11:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
There is also the watercourse Yalup Brook which some of these may refer to as a location. There seems to have been some sort of settlement there but I don't think it exists anymore. Is it possible that the Refinery swallowed up whatever was once there? Calistemon (talk) 12:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
almost certainly did... JarrahTree 12:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
I might make a small adjustment to reflect that it is a "former". Calistemon (talk) 12:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Trove records show clear signs of life for 1912 and 1948 -
1931 There were halls at Hamel, Yallup Brook, and Wagerup but the lot put together would not make a real hall "Waroona Hall". Harvey Murray Times. I, (19). Western Australia. 27 November 1931. p. 3. Retrieved 26 October 2021 – via National Library of Australia.CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) ... JarrahTree 12:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The Gazetteer of Australia still lists the place (search here). It has a set of coordinates for the townsite (-32.89851° / 115.90372°), which I have used to amend the article. Rather then pointing at the refinery it now actually points to a building on the South Western Highway, which aligns a bit more with the article text. Calistemon (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Seems like it's a townsite within the locality of Wagerup. Hack (talk) 10:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
The townsite boundary is shown in the bottom right map here as near where Fawcett Road meets South Western Railway, within Wagerup Alumina Refinery bounds. Betterkeks (talk) 11:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Should Russell Woolf be described as Western Australian[edit]

Editors are invited to comment at Talk:Russell_Woolf#Western_Australian as to whether Woolf should be described in the lead sentence (and the short description) as a "Western Australian media personality", vs an "Australian media personality". Mitch Ames (talk) 22:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Paul Keaney[edit]

Can someone have a look at the article, the main issue i see is the first sentence with no references? Maybe im out of touch on wiki, but an allegation like that should surely have RS? Five Years 14:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

MOS:LEADCITE says we don't necessarily need references in the lead section. He's long dead, so BLP does not apply. I've reworded the lead paragraph. Give the ease of finding the details in the article (there's a clearly named section) and that the details in the main section do have citations, I don't think there's a need for cites in the lead. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Mitch - i wasnt sure on the procedures here, but it didnt feel right, thanks for clarifying. Five Years 01:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Perth suburb articles without images[edit]

I done a bit of a drive on the articles in Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia to see whether more of them could be furnished with images and/or better images. I utilised the Wikidatalist template for this purpose and got it to compile a list in User:Calistemon/Wikidatalist/Suburbs of Perth. Of those 350 articles, 94 still don't have an image for the infobox. All these are listed in User:Calistemon/Wikidatalist/Suburbs of Perth without image. Both lists have the the ability to create an OpenStreet map with the Wikidata suburb coordinates through the GeoGroup template. If any Perth-based or -visiting editor comes into one of the listed suburb and feels like uploading a representative image it would greatly help in having images for all Perth suburbs. Calistemon (talk) 06:49, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

FYI I'm currently collect video images of burbs, to put together like the CY O'Connor Beach one. Aiming to create for all eventually. Gnangarra 07:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC)